ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ:ਸੱਥ/ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਚਾ 6

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Fundraising localization: volunteers from outside the USA needed

Please translate for your local community

Hello All,

The Wikimedia Foundation's Fundraising team have begun our 'User Experience' project, with the goal of understanding the donation experience in different countries outside the USA and enhancing the localization of our donation pages. I am searching for volunteers to spend 30 minutes on a Skype chat with me, reviewing their own country's donation pages. It will be done on a 'usability' format (I will ask you to read the text and go through the donation flow) and will be asking your feedback in the meanwhile.

The only pre-requisite is for the volunteer to actually live in the country and to have access to at least one donation method that we offer for that country (mainly credit/debit card, but also real-time banking like IDEAL, E-wallets, etc...) so we can do a live test and see if the donation goes through. All volunteers will be reimbursed of the donations that eventually succeed (and they will be low amounts, like 1-2 dollars)

By helping us you are actually helping thousands of people to support our mission of free knowledge across the world. Please sing up and help us with our 'User Experience' project! :) If you are interested (or know of anyone who could be) please email ppena@wikimedia.org. All countries needed (excepting USA)!

Thanks!
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Global Fundraising Operations Manager, Wikimedia Foundation

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Warning to Ranjitpreet (and Ranjit preet)

Sat Sri Akaal users. This time, after noticing a lot of vandalism, excessive spam and self-promotion from both of his accounts, I want the community to talk to him. He have not did the same once or twice that I should link to them, so please check here and here for his contributions from both the accounts and note he contributed almost nothing to the wiki articles and only using the wiki for possible promotion, with lots of spamming links, personal info etc. and also, being the only contributor, vandalised and inserted spams to other user's page here.

And this is also to be discussed, if one could have two accounts (Ranjitpreet and Ranjit preet) without any special reason? (his edits are enough to prove that both the accounts belongs to one user). --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੨:੨੩, ੧੯ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

About two accounts - it's not a problem by itself, as in the discussion above.

About vandalism I don't have anything to say, because I cannot read Punjabi. But it's very good to bring it up for community discussion. --ਅਮੀਰ ਏਲਿਸ਼ਾ ਅਹਰੋਨਿ / Amir E. Aharoni (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੩੧, ੧੯ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Tari ji i can self promotion on one of his user-page. We should talk to him first and please tell me what sort of vandalism he has done. I can see a blank page in the link you gave me and that's about some other user. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੫੧, ੧੯ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Please check their contributions dear, it's very clear. In the other user's-page case, I've provide a link to it's history. Please examine in detail. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੨:੫੬, ੧੯ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Yeah, I just saw it. This is clearly vandalism and self-promotion. What do you think we should do ? --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੫:੦੪, ੧੯ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

As he did nothing other than spamming and self-promotion, I would suggest to block atleast one of the accounts but the repeatable community may decide better. Please feel free to give your views. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੫:੩੮, ੧੯ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Yeah I agree. We should warn him this time and if he continues like this then we can think of something else. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੫:੪੩, ੧੯ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Bug filed, please vote

Sat Sri Akaal community! I've filed the long time occuring bug, the wrong spellings of the project namespace, "wikipedia", at bugzilla. Punjabi spellings of "Wikipedia" are appearing wrong as "ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡਿਆ" which was discussed before by many users here. I've filed the bug.

To fix it the bugzilla team needs a community consensus; please support here and also vote at bugzilla, here to support it being major so that it can be fixed as soon as possible. Thanks a lot! --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੨:੫੧, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

And to vote on bugzilla, you may have to register (very simple) but it's totally free. So please don't worry and register & vote. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੫:੪੫, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ

Support

1. ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ)
2. itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]
3. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
4. ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੩੩, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
5. Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੭:੩੬, ੨੨ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
6. Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੮:੩੫, ੨੨ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
7. Charan Gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੧:੪੯, ੨੩ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
8. ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੩:੧੨, ੨੩ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
9. ਗੁਰਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੰਘ ੧੫:੧੨, ੨੩ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
10. Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

Oppose

1. Strong Oppose §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ

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ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ

Oppose

1. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
2. tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]
3. ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ)
4. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ

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ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡਿਆ

Support

1. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੦:੩੮, ੩ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Oppose

1. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
2. tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]
3. ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ)
4. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੭:੩੮, ੨੨ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

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ਵੀਕੀਪਿਡੀਆ

Oppose

1. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
2. tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]
3. ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ)
4. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ

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Other comments

Shouldn't the spellings be ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ ???? --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੯:੩੦, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

"wiki" is softly pronunced as ਵਿਕੀ, not like the common name "vicky" (ਵਿੱਕੀ). Hope I succeeded making you understand. Feel free to express what you think. You can also check the pronunciation here. Thanks. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੯:੪੪, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

It is "ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ" according to the pronunciation. Moreover, pronunciation of words change when they are used by speakers of other languages. No Punjabi would pronounce it as "ਵਿਕੀ". We don't pronounce any word softly --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੫੩, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

this TariButtar is copying all the wikipedia that he likes and tells me not to use concepts from Dutch wikipedia. TariButtar looks like he is just here to look clever and to push all his urdu over all the proper punjabi words. A while ago when I was reading it used to say ਚਰਚਾ for discussion, TariButtar pushed the ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ from the pakistani punjabi wikipedia. Even this ਤਾਜ਼ਾ ਤਬਦੀਲੀਆਂਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ is supposed to be ਤਾਜਾ ਤਬਦੀਲੀਆਂ, the ਆਜ਼ਾਦ should be ਆਜਾਦ. Punjabi's and Punjabi language is well known that they don't say have lot Z in their language, they just use it to make like they are clever. Wikipedia (WIK-i-PEE-dee-ə) is ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡਿਆ, you can't make special things for yourself, see all other indic wikipedia places, they all talk differently but all use the same way wikipedia is spelt, the word itself is not Punjabi and the IPA (international pronunciation so don't come with this native Punjabi's say blah blah) is WIK-i-PEE-dee-ə, which is not ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ or ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ, so just call this pointless nonsense off. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੩:੫੮, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Please repaire your behaviour as not always the admins are to be blamed.

As of translations having ਤਾਜ਼ਾ ਤਬਦੀਲੀਆਂ and ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ I wanna clear that I never copied other wikis and they're done when I never had a visit to the pakistani punjabi wikipedia. If you know the bihari and sihari pronunciations in Punjabi, you may understand the difference and change-needed very nicely. And as of the "z" and "j" it's rare in pahaari dialect but exist in standard Punjabi and users knows it better and moreover, it's punjabi wiki not rajasthani. You also once tried to forced the standardard Punjabi prefering a dialect, before, which is not good. So please let other say, not discourage them giving their views as they're free to do so. Thanks. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੭:੫੦, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Satdeep gill: "We don't pronounce any word softly". north western Indian languages like Bhojpuri, Hindi, Gujarati, Rajastani, Pali, Kashmiri etc. don't pronounce any word softly, but even they did not alternate the word Wikipedia just to suit their generalized tongue. All the wikipedias they work the WIK-i-PEE-dee-ə as विकिपीडिया, વિકિપીડિયા, وکیپیڈیا so there is no excuse for the Punjabi to be changed. ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡਿਆ should remain the way it is.

Let me just break this down for you TariButtar: See proper IPA pronunciation that all wikipedia follows:

WIK-i-PEE-dee-ə =

WI = Wi = ਵਿ

K-i = ki = ਕਿ

PEE = pe = ਪੀ

dee = di = ਡਿ

ə = a = ਆ

I'm discouraging anybody from giving their views - says you TariButtar who has been criticized for personally attacking and unwelcoming to the new users.

The Bihari and Sihari rules are used when one is importing from another language, Wikipedia is not a Punjabi word and is not being imported into the language so it remains in that form §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੮:੧੩, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I was not asking if this is the Rajastani wikipedia, Give me a example of classic punjabi where they use ਜ਼ many times? you are just trying to look clever and high class by changing the this Wikipedia with all these Pakistani and Lahori words - ਸਫ਼ਾ, ਕੌਮੀ, ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ, etc. These are not standard Punjabi. I've been revealed to the Dogra Dialect but I don't use it in my edits whereas you are pushing these Pakistani words waay to far. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੮:੨੨, ੨੫ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

According to the rules of Punjabi Wiki ਵਿਕਿ can't exist. We can't pronounce it. The example of Pakistani Punjabi Wiki you gave وکیپیڈیا, Let me tell you that this is not written "ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡਿਆ". What i want Tari to know that it should be ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ instead. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੧:੧੨, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Yeah, Satdeep there is a little thing to discuss i.e. the adhak but VibhasKS alone making a very rough discussion relying on Punjabi's dialects and denieing the standard Punjabi you may remember he did this before also. Some people making efforts to collaborate both the wikis (I didn't tried to add those words as he is saying but what if I say he just tried to add the hindi words in standard Punjabi. But I don't beleive in blame-games) and he is just not, valuing the standard Punjabi, supporting his dialect which he did many times before. He himself is copying other wikis at a high rate and accusing me for the same where I rarely visit other wikis expect the en.wiki. He should came up and be familiar with the standard Punjabi. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੧:੩੩, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

It should be either ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ or ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ. I personally think that ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ seems better than ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ.--ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੨:੩੧, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ is the best option as it is the same as ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ . In Punjabi adhak is often left out and works as a silent phoneme .--Charan Gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੩:੧੩, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

TariButtar, WHAT A JOKE!! you are implementing policies from en.wp to harass the new users, lots of the experienced users have said this, I think you need to get to the Pakistani wikipedia I'm sure they will LOVE you, because you know absolutely nothing about the Standard Punjabi in India, you and your words are standard in Pakistan, that I won't argue with but here, it is inappropriate, you obviously have something against Sanskrit, Hindi and Devanagari which you need to repair and I hope you will be able to §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੩:੩੩, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

You may now call, Charan Gill, not knowing Punjabi well, a non-Indian or implementing en.wiki or may something I even never assumed, right? --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੪:੩੨, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

All the wiki's have their own spelling and pronunciation, Punjabi's is ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੬:੩੩, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Like

• ਮੇਹਰ prounced as mehr or becomes ਮਿਹਰ
• ਸੇਹਰਾ prounced as sehraa becomes ਸਿਹਰਾ in punjabi, but pronunciation remains mehr or sehraa , accordingly ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡਿਆ will be pronounced as wikepedia(ਪੰ: ਵਿਕੇਪੀਡਿਆ )which is not the correct intention in word wikipedia . Correct intention is to speak it with long ਈ , so its correct spelling in punjabi is ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ .And regarding addak it is not required here .Addak is required when positive double sound of a particular letter is required. Many times it is doubtful whether addak is required to double the sound of letter or not . Even in those doubtful cases addak is normally left out.So ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ is most appropriate in Punjabi.There should not be any dispute about it. Remember we are not to produce double sound of ਕ , but we have to produce sound of long ਈ and not ਇਹ or ਏ sound.--Guglani (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੬:੪੦, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

In the absence of a standard dictionary, I believe we should turn to newspapers, magazines, books and other publications to find out how the people are transliterating it into Gurumukhi. Here are two instances of two popular Punjabi newspapers - Ajit and Punjabi Tribune prefering ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ rather than ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡੀਆ or ਵਿੱਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ.

Thank you!

Thokara (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੭:੪੬, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I am sure to say we all use ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ, but the resources all do ਵਿਕਿਪੀਡਿਆ, can this bug also be repaired? --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੦:੧੫, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

In en.wp they use have a shortcut for the Wikipedia (WP) like en:WP:NPOV, for Punjabi wiki, we should use ਵਿ: §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੮:੪੫, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

What is going to happen here?, is looks like it's staying the same §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੩:੩੮, ੮ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Spelling and Vocabulary

Hello all,

I believe that it is paramount we create a "Style Guide" as soon as possible so that we may standardize the spelling used in various articles across the Punjabi Wiki. Some issues include:

• The use of bindi with Perso-Arabic phonemes (ਖ਼, ਗ਼, ਜ਼, ਫ਼)
• The use of bindi with kaka (ਕ਼), which helps bridge the gap between Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi... I personally prefer adopting this point, but would understand if others were to object, given its current absence in the Indian standard. We'd be acting as trailblazers.
• The use of bindi with lala (ਲ਼). Which dialect to we use as standard, here? Is it better to abandon this altogether?
• Being strict with the proper use of addak. I propose we follow the spellings used in the dictionaries of Punjabi University, Patiala (found here). For example, we should replace ਵਿਚ with ਵਿੱਚ.

I have other style-related ideas, but would first like to hear some feedback...

--205.204.74.215 ੧੫:੦੨, ੧੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Glad to see your interest in the Punjabi wiki and being it in styling and spellings is specially appreciatable. As the very next thing and to be attributed correctly, please register an account or login if have already.

All the nukta/bindi characters in Punjabi are included very wisely, it's great to have proper use of them but for kakka with bind, I think it should not be used. Even, it's not included in the Punjabi varnmala. And, please create an account. --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੫:੨੪, ੧੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Sorry, that was me! Forgot to log back in.

I understand your point with respect to ਕ਼; it isn't included in the Varnmala, very true. I'd like to see it used to reduce the distance between Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi, but I understand the counter-argument. Even Pakistani Punjabis often make no distinction between ਕ and ਕ਼!

Could you comment on my point about ਲ਼? Writers in Punjab seem to be confused about its use, and the situation is made worse by the fact that ਲ and ਲ਼ are used differently in different dialects... Some do not make any distincton at all!

--Ihaveacomputer (talk) ੧੫:੪੭, ੧੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

About ਲ਼, I would say that it must be promoted among the community all over. Punjabi has a distinct sound to be represent with the letter. The sound that I think no other or rare languages have. I also prefers use of this. Often, words' sound and meaning differs with the use. For e.g. ਪਾਲੀ and ਪਾਲ਼ੀ. Only people knowing Punjabi deeply, knows the difference. And, Shahmukhi is unable to produce some sounds of Punjabi like, ਲ਼ and ਣ. May the western Punjabis knows the pronunciations well but Shahmukhi don't have distinct letter to represents them. That's why I think ਕ਼ should be avoided. Anyway, I know the pronunciation and sense of ਕ਼ very well as I knows Urdu. Also tell me, was it you to start the topic from the IP address? --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੧:੪੭, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Yes, I started the topic. My apologies; I'd forgotten to sign in.

I support accepting the use of ਲ਼, but I can foresee one problem: many are not properly educated as to when to use this letter and when not to. If we want to mandate its use as part of our 'standard', then we will probably have to do a lot of proofreading. Also, I assume we will be using Majhi as the standard for determining when it is to be used, right?

Ihaveacomputer (talk) ੧੩:੩੩, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

About use of ਅਧਕ in ਵਿਚ, please read some views in gurmukhi:-

ਅਧਕ ੱ ਇਕ ਅਜਿਹਾ ਗਰੀਬ ਚਿੰਨ੍ਹ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦੀ,

              ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਦੇ ਲੇਖਕ, ਕੰਪੋਜ਼ਰ, ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ਕ ਆਦਿ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਵਧ ਦੁਰਵਰਤੋਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ। 
              ਜਿਥੇ ਇਸਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਹੋਵੇ ਓਥੇ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਲਾਉਣਾ ਨਹੀ ਤੇ ਜਿਥੇ ਨਾ ਲੱਗਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ 
              ਓਥੇ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਲਾ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਖਾਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਪੱਛਮੀ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਤੋਂ ਆਏ ਹੋਏ ਲੇਖਕ 
              ਸੱਜਣਾਂ ਨੇ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕਿਤੇ ਤਹੱਈਆ ਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਵੇ ਇਸ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ 
              ਅਧਕ ੱ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਪਲੀਤ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ। ਦਿੱਲੀ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ ਦੇ ਇਕ ਸਾਬਕ ਪ੍ਰੋਫੈਸਰ 
              ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਤੋਂ ਪਤਾ ਲਗਾ ਕਿ ਪੋਠੋਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਇਲਾਕੇ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਆਉਣ ਵਾਲ਼ੇ ਲੇਖਕਾਂ 
              ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿੱਦਿਅਕ ਦਾਇਰੇ ਵਿਚ, ਮਖੌਲ ਵਜੋਂ ਅਧਕਾਂ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ 
              ਸੀ; ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਉਹ ਅਕਸਰ ਹੀ ਇਸਦੀ ਬੇਲੋੜੀ ਤੇ ਵਾਧੂ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ-ਹਨ। 
              ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਪੜ੍ਹਕੇ ਵੇਖੋ; ਜਿਥੇ ਲੋੜ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ ਓਥੇ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਨਹੀ ਲਾਉਣਗੇ 
              ਤੇ ਜਿਥੇ ਨਹੀ ਲੋੜ ਹੋਵੇਗੀ ਓਥੇ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਨੂੰ ਟਾਂਕਣਗੇ। ਅਸੀਂ 
              ਅਜੇ ਤੱਕ ਇਹ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣ ਸਕੇ ਕਿ ਅਧਕ ਕੇਵਲ ਜਿਸ ਅੱਖਰ ਦਾ ਦੋਹਰਾ ਉਚਾਰਣ ਹੋਵੇ, 
              ਉਸ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਅੱਖਰ ਉਪਰ ਹੀ ਲਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ; ਹੋਰ ਕਿਤੇ ਨਹੀ। ਜਿਥੇ 
              ਸ਼ੱਕ ਹੋਵੇ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਪੂਰਾ ਯਕੀਨ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਓਥੇ ਲਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀ; ਇਸ 
              ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਵੀ ਸਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਿਸਾਲ ਵਜੋਂ: ਵਰਤਮਾਨ ਸਮੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪੱਤਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਸੰਪਾਦਕ 
              ਸ਼ਬਦ 'ਕੁਝ' ਦੇ ਉਪਰ ਬੇਲੋੜਾ ਅਧਕ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਇਸਨੂੰ 'ਕੁੱਝ' ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਿਚ ਅਣਗਹਿਲੀ 
              ਨਹੀ ਕਰਦੇ। ਅਸੀਂ ਪੇਂਡੂ ਮਝੈਲ ਇਸ 'ਕੁਝ' ਨੂੰ 'ਕੁਸ਼' ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਉਰਦੂ 
              ਹਿੰਦੀ ਵਾਲ਼ੇ ਵੀ ਏਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਹੀ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਨ। ਹਿੰਦੀ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਇਸਨੂੰ 'ਕੁਛ' 
              ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕਈ ਸੱਜਣ ਸ਼ ਤੇ ਛ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਨਾ ਸੱਕਣ ਕਾਰਨ, ਇਸਨੂੰ 'ਕੁਸ' 
              ਵੀ ਉਚਾਰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਪੱਛਮੀ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਦੇ, ਪ੍ਰੋ. ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ, ਸ. ਗੁਰਬਖਸ਼ ਸਿੰਘ 
              ਜੀ ਆਦਿ ਸਿੱਖ ਲਿਖਾਰੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਇਸਨੂੰ 'ਕੁਝ' ਲਿਖਣਾ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ ਤੇ ਛਾਪੇ 
              ਵਿਚ ਏਹੋ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਚੱਲਤ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਜਿਸਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਬਦਲ ਕੇ ਭੰਬਲ਼ਭੂਸੇ ਵਿਚ ਹੋਰ 
              ਵਾਧਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਤੁਕ ਨਹੀ ਬਣਦੀ; ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ ਨਹੀ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਕਿ 
              ਤਕਰੀਬਨ ਹਰੇਕ ਸੰਪਾਦਕ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਉਪਰ ਬੇਲੋੜਾ ਅਧਕ ਲਾਉਣੋ ਕਿਉਂ ਨਹੀ ਉਕਦਾ! 
              ਵੈਸੇ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਇਸ ਅਰਥ ਵਾਸਤੇ, ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਰੂਪਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਵੀ ਆਇਆ 
              ਹੈ: ਕਛ, ਕਛੁ, ਕਛੂ, ਕਛੂਅ, ਕਛੂਅਕ, ਕਿਛ, ਕਿਛੁ, ਕਿਛੂ, ਕਿਛੂਅ, ਕਿਛਹੂ, 
              ਕਿਝੁ, ਕਿਝ; ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਜੋਕੇ ਸਮੇ ਦੇ ਛਾਪੇਖਾਨੇ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਆ ਕੇ, ਪਹਿਲਾਂ 
              ਹੀ ਵਲ਼ਗਣੋ ਬਾਹਰੀਆਂ ਹੋ ਚੁੱਕੀਆਂ ਉਲ਼ਝਣਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੋਰ ਵਾਧਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਲੋੜ 
              ਨਹੀ। ਹੁਣ ਇਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਚੱਲਤ ਰੂਪ 'ਕੁਝ' ਹੀ ਠੀਕ ਹੈ।
              ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿਚ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਕੁਝ ਗਿਣਵੇ ਚੁਣਵੇਂ ਥਾਂਵਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ, ਹੋਰ ਥਾਂਵਾਂ ਤੇ ਅਧਕ 
              ਨਾ ਵੀ ਲੱਗੇ ਤਾਂ ਅਰਥਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਫਿ਼ਰ ਵੀ ਕੋਈ ਫ਼ਰਕ ਨਹੀ ਪੈਂਦਾ: 
            

              ਕਦ (ਕਦੋਂ) ਕੱਦ (ਸਾਈਜ਼)
              ਪਤ (ਇਜ਼ਤ) ਪੱਤ (ਪੱਤੇ)
              ਭਲਾ (ਚੰਗਾ) ਭੱਲਾ (ਖਾਣ ਵਾਲ਼ਾ)
              ਪਤਾ (ਸਿਰਨਾਵਾਂ) ਪੱਤਾ (ਦਰੱੱਤ ਦਾ ਪੱਤਾ)
              ਬਚਾ (ਬਾਲਕ) ਬੱਚਾ (ਬਚਾਉਣਾ) ਪੱਤਣ (ਪੋਰਟ) ਪਤਨ (ਗਿਰਾਵਟ)
              ਗੁਦਾ (ਪਿੱਠ) ਗੁੱਦਾ (ਪਲਪ)
              ਜਤ (ਸੰਜਮ) ਜੱਤ (ਵਾਲ਼)
              ਧੁਪ (ਧੋਣਾ) ਧੁੱਪ (ਸੂਰਜ ਦੀ)
              ਸਦਾ (ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂ) ਸੱਦਾ (ਬੁਲਾਵਾ)
              ਸਜਾ (ਜੁਰਮਾਨਾ) ਸੱਜਾ (ਰਾਈਟ)

ਇਸ ਲਈ ਵਿਚ ਨੂੰ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਨਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ।ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਵਿੱਚ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਉੱਚਾਰਣ ਅੰਗਰੇਜ਼ੀ witch ਵਰਗਾ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ, ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਵਿਚਾਲੇ ਯਾ ਵਿਚਕਾਰ ਨਾ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਵਿਚੋਲਾ ਬਣ ਜਾਵੇਗਾ । ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨਿਵਰਸਿਟੀ ਦੀ ਡਿਕਸ਼ਨਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਇਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਈ ਗਲਤੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਹਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਲਈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਆਰੀ ਮੰਨਣਾ ਠੀਕ ਨਹੀਂ।Guglani (talk) ੧੭:੩੬, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Guglani, thank you very much for that fascinating article. I had no idea that the use of adhak in words like ਕੁੱਝ was influenced by Pakistani Punjabi dialects [Edit: sorry, I misread; the whims of one writer!]. I just finished adding the adhak to each ਵਿਚ in the Amritsar article, where both ਵਿਚ and ਵਿੱਚ were being used at random.

As mentioned above, I propose we develop a style guide so that we have uniformity across the entire Wiki. When should we use bindi? Adhak? Do we use a danda or period? If we use a danda, do we pad it with spaces on either end, or just on the right, as we do with the period?

Until the style guide is written, I will refrain from making further adhak-based edits, unless in a situation in which there is a clear and obvious spelling error. Ihaveacomputer (talk) ੧੭:੫੩, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

(Creating this section as I'm unable to edit the previous because it exceeded my device's max. char. support edit window.)

First of all, thanks Guglani for your participation. I wanna say:

1. Please don't copy-and-paste this type of articles here; they should just be linked to the original source.
2. ndly, How this article can taken to be more reliable than the Punjabi University dictionary; although, I personally not support an ਅੱਧਕ in ਵਿਚ and also feels that the dictionary is not perfect.
3. Please be bold but not rough. The last copy-paste material by you causing unusual view due to lots of leading spaces that also found in the articles at large.

Please don't take it personally but many times, I found you in a hurry to prove yourself right. Please be patient and please avoid this type of large (not that it's larger to me) and unsourced material. From any such externaly exist material, only some important part should be posted here (of course in good formatting and manually, if possible) and a link is the best for the rest. Anyway thanks for your views.

--tari Buttar (talk) ੧੮:੧੨, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

tari jee!

• All matter in punjabi is not in unicode font. How did you judge that I have copy pasted some matter without knowing details?
• To bring home some points against a university dictionary some stress in words is required, because simply telling THAT I DO NOT SUPPORT may not be enough to bring home a point or a practice.
• To find sources in punjabi for every argument is not so easy.
• Moreover this is a discussion page so please restrain from giving unnecessary advices , specially on a discussion page which should be with open mind and spirit.I remind you this is not an article page where some quotes of others cannot be used may that be blog views or any thing.To agree or not to agree is one's individual opinion.Guglani (talk) ੧੮:੩੮, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Hallo all, Punjabi is not my mother toungue but I'd just like to share that there is no point in altering the language to bridge gaps with Shahmukhi and the Pakistani Punjabi dialects, the history goes as such that the Punjab was divided because they wanted to create a division, and it has created differences between the Indian and Pakistani punjabi, because you will notice Indian punjabi will rely heavily on Sanskrit and Pakistani Punjabi will retain a stronger Persian and Arab influence. So, the bindi with ਕ਼ is inappropriate and unnecessary and the ਲ਼ could be acceptable in both ways. And I agree that the dictionary has many floors and should not be the absolute final say on what the word(s) are. Hoping what I'm try to say makes sense to you all. --Zarienah (talk) ੧੯:੪੫, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Hello Zarienah, thanks for your reply.

I disagree about there being no point to attempting to keep the language used in this Wikipedia as close as is practically possible to that used in Pakistan, but that's my own opinion. I do think we should default to Perso-Arabic vocabulary as opposed to Sanskritic vocabulary whenever possible, as these words are often more accessible to Indian Punjabis without a strong formal education. They have the added benefit of treading "common ground", of course!

The point on ਕ਼ is well taken. Wikipedia is an inappropriate platform for language activism, and even a small group of people dedicated to the idea would be drowned out by the majority as this Wiki picks up steam. It'll remain a pipe dream of mine, I suppose!

On ਲ਼, I'm still waiting for an answer on what to use as our model for proper spelling. Some dialects make no distinction whatsoever between ਲ਼ and ਲ, and some make use of it for specific words which are pronounced differently elsewhere. Will we be using Majhi as our model, or Malwai? Also, if we aren't taking Punjabi University's dictionary as our source for a standard, what will we rely upon?

Of course, I never took the moment to ask whether any of you think it is even necessary to have a "standard" in the first place! Some are against the idea. I am strongly in support (it feels sloppy to have words spelled differently across articles), but this is something we'd obviously have to vote upon.

Ihaveacomputer (talk) ੨੦:੨੦, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I however don't support an over excessive use of Persio-Arabic words, some words have been incorporated into the language, but the distances between Pakistani Panjabi should be kept because its an obvious fact that mostly Indians will read this site and if there is an excessive use of Persio-Arabic words it would make it incomprehensible to them. But as I said some Persio-Arabic words do come naturally into the language, and those words should still remain. The Pakistani punjabi has many differences to Indian punjabi, the script, the vocabulary (as I explained earlier). I really dont think wiki is the right place to unite the language.

The university's dictionary could be a start I guess, but don't put too much trust in it, there are other Panjabi dictionaries online that can be of better use to the Gurmukhi Panjabi wiki --Zarienah (talk) ੨੧:੦੦, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

On ਲ਼, I think for simplicity's sake we could leave out the bindi--Zarienah (talk) ੨੧:੦੦, ੧੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

On ਲ਼ further please let me talk in punjabi, ਲੱਲੇ ਦੇ ਪੈਰ ਵਿਚ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਲਾ ਕੇ, ਲ਼ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ, ਇਸ ਦਾ ਤਾਲ਼ਵੀ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ, ਇਹਨਾਂ ਪੰਜ ਫ਼ਾਰਸੀ ਤੌਂ ਆਏ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ(ਸ਼,ਖ਼,ਗ਼,ਜ਼,ਫ਼)ਨਾਲੌਂ ਵੱਖਰਾ ਹੈ ।ਇਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਵੀ ਕੁਝ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬੇਲੋੜਾ ਭੰਬਲ਼ਭੂਸਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ, ਲ਼ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਲ੍ਹ, ਅਰਥਾਤ, ਲੱਲੇ ਦੇ ਪੈਰ ਵਿਚ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ੍ਹ ਪਾ ਕੇ ਲਿਖਣ ਦੀ ਗ਼ਲਤ ਜ਼ਿਦ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ।

ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਆਵਾਜ਼ਾਂ ਦੀ ਮੌਜੂਦਗੀ ਨਾ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ, ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦਰਸਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਵੱਖਰੇ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ। ਜਦੋਂ ਲੋੜ ਪਈ ਤਾਂ ਪੰਜਾਂ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਪੈਰੀਂ ਬਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਕੰਮ ਸਾਰ ਲਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਪਰ ਹੁਣ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਬੇਲੋੜੀ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਲਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਰਿਵਾਜ਼ ਜਿਹਾ ਹੀ ਪੈ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਮੁਢਲੇ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦੇ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਲਈ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ। ਸੋ ਜੇ ਇਹ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਨਾ ਵੀ ਵਰਤੀ ਜਾਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਦੇ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਦੋਸ਼ ਨਹੀ। ਸੋ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਸੰਬੰਧਤ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਨੁੰ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਵਾਦ ਵਿਵਾਦ ਵਿਚ ਸਮਾਂ ਬਿਤਾਉਣ ਨਾਲ ਕਈ ਹੋਰ ਮੁੱਦੇ ਸੁਲਝਾਣੇ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਣਗੇ। ਹਾਂ, ਜੇ ਇਹ ਬੇਲੋੜੀ ਲਾਈ ਜਾਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਪੂਰੀ ਦੀ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੀ ਗ਼ਲਤ ਹੈ।

ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਦੇ ਨਵੇਂ ਲਿਖਾਰੀ ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਇਕ ਦੂਜੇ ਤੋਂ ਅੱਗੇ ਲੰਘਣ ਲਈ, ਵਧ ਤੋਂ ਵਧ ਬਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਵਿਦਿਅਕ ਦੌੜ ਦੀ ਪਰਾਪਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਵਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਕਾਰਜ ਵਿਚ ਦੂਜਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਾੜਨ ਦਾ ਇਹ, ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਲਿਖਤਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਬਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਵਾਧੇ ਵਾਲ਼ਾ, ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਸੌਖਾ ਢੰਗ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਅਪਣਾ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ। ਜੇ ਹੁਣ ਤੱਕ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਵਾਲੇ ਲ਼ ਤੌਂ ਬਿਨਾਂ ਕੰਮ ਚਲੀ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਖਾਹ ਮਖਾਹ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਗਲਤੀਆਂ ਕੱਢ ਕੇ ਫਿਰ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਧਾਰ ਕੇ ਕੀ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰ ਲਵਾਂਗੇ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਕਿੰਨੇ ਕੁ ਵਰਤੌਂਕਾਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸੋਝੀ ਦੇਣ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਿਮੇਵਾਰੀ ਲੈ ਲਵਾਂਗੇ।ਇਸ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੌਂ ਭਾਰਤ ਵਿਚਲੇ ਪੰਜਾਬੀਆਂ ਵਲੌਂ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖੀ ਲਿਪੀ ਵਰਤਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਵਲੌਂ ਨਿਗੂਣੀ ਹੈ। ਸੋ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਸੰਬੰਧਤ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਨੁੰ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਵਾਦ ਵਿਵਾਦ ਵਿਚ ਸਮਾਂ ਬਿਤਾਉਣ ਨਾਲ ਕਈ ਹੋਰ ਮੁੱਦੇ ਸੁਲਝਾਣੇ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਣਗੇ। ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਸਭ ਤੌਂ ਵਧੀਕ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਪਾੜੇ ਨੂੰ ਘੱਟ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਹੈ ।ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਰਤੌਂਕਾਰ ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ ਤੇ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਵਧਾਉਣੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਸਮੱਗਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਵਧਾਉਣਾ ਤੇ ਵਧ ਰਹਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਮਦਦ,ਹੋਂਸਲਾ ਅਫ਼ਜਾਈ ਕਰਨਾ ਜਿਸ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿਕੀ ਦੇ ਲਾਭਕਾਰੀ ਹੋ ਸਕਣ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਵਿਚਲਾ ਗਿਆਨ,ਅੰਗਰੇਜ਼ੀ ਨਾ ਜਾਣਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਵੀ, ਬਰਾਬਰ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਜਲਦੀ ਤੌਂ ਜਲਦੀ ਹਾਸਲ ਕਰ ਸਕਣ ,ਅਸਲੀ ਮੁੱਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਧਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਵਧੇਰੇ ਲੋੜ ਹੈ।Guglani (talk) ੧੧:੧੨, ੧੪ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

(sorry for this, again)

Guglani jee, again you did the same. You're saying Punjabi University's dictionary to be unreliable (although I agree, in some cases) in many cases but from which reliable source you got the article? Is this written by yourself?
I know the talk pages are free to express view/opinion but in a good and polite way. I don't agree using talk pages to criticise someone/something in a way that sounds personal. For e.g. Calling a sign ਗਰੀਬ, saying about someone like ਖਾਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਪੱਛਮੀ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਤੋਂ ਆਏ ਹੋਏ ਲੇਖਕ ਸੱਜਣਾਂ ਨੇ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕਿਤੇ ਤਹੱਈਆ ਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਵੇ ਇਸ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਅਧਕ ੱ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਪਲੀਤ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ। and ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ ਨਹੀ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਕਿ.. sounds against the civility a bit and the tone of the article is not neutral and also sounds to be written like a newspaper or magazine article. Wiki is for everyone that's why it should be neutral. And, if the sources are hard to find about Punjabi then where you get it from? If it's your personal, please repaire the tone, leading spaces etc. and keep the wiki clear and clean. We are discussing about styling and spellings but you're not paying attention on both. Please, please, please pay attention on the latter. Many of your articles and now this are written in a newspaper style article, I don't why to take wiki to okay for this kind of writings and don't know from where you get them. Also, I personally don't want to be called jee just be neutral and bold but civil. --tari Buttar (talk) ੦੧:੫੯, ੧੪ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Hello Guglani,

I hope you don't mind if I reply in English; it's my mother tongue, and I'm still working on my Punjabi writing skills.

There are three main ideas you expressed above. I will address each.

1) The bindi is often used by mistake by misguided writers.

This is very true. I have often noticed myself that writers use the bindi when it is inappropriate, even employing the sounds they represent erroneously in speech! There is very obviously 'prestige' associated with these sounds... They are perceived to represent good education and a 'cultured' background. This is probably why their use in speech is so common amongst artists.

Now, here's my question: when do you consider their use to be erroneous? Is it only when the error is noted by the actual spelling in Shahmukhi/Urdu (saying/writing "za" when the original is, in fact, "ja"), or do you also include its use when that sound is no longer represented in the speech of Indian Punjabis? I support removing the bindi in the former case, as it is being used erroneously, but I personally prefer to use it even in the second case due to reasons I've discussed previously.

2) It is impractical to enforce the use of the bindi, especially if we are trying to attract as many users as possible.

You're right, it is indeed impractical. I don't dispute that point. It is not unrealistic, however, for us to develop a general style guide which can be accessed by those who would like to adhere to a written standard. I do not support hounding down individual users and demanding they adhere rigidly to the points we set down, but it does make sense to have some sort of standard. As I said, it's as basic as knowing how to pad the danda with spaces; a very, very basic formatting issue around which we should easily be able to form a consensus and employ in our own personal edits. In that very simple case, users will base their writing on the standard which surrounds them in each and every sentence of each and every article.

3) The original purpose of Wikipedia is to be a repository of knowledge, and in the case of the Punjabi Wiki, bridge the knowledge gap for those without knoweldge of English.

Yes, I completely agree. As I mentioned above, I recognize that Wikipedia is not a platform for language activism. Nevertheless, I don't believe certain stylistic guidelines are unreasonable. I personally believe that it reflects badly on the Wiki and on the community if we cannot come together over something so fundamental as how to end our sentences.

Remember that this Wiki is still very young, with very few articles. We don't need, nor do I support, a spelling 'police force' to monitor stylistic rules. Whichever standard we set now, during this Wiki's infancy, well... Serious contributors will mimic that standard, and no 'enforcement' will be necessary.

I hope all of the above makes sense. I would like to now reply to Zarienah.

1) I agree that we shouldn't make excessive use of Perso-Arabic vocabulary which is inaccessible to Indian Punjabis. My point was actually that we default to those words when they exist alongside Sanskritic alternatives. The average villager in Punjab learns Sanskritic terminology in the classroom, and the Perso-Arabic alternative through natural exposure. I don't plan on enforcing this point in any shape or form, but allow me to give an example: I would personally use ਮਸਰੂਫ਼ rather than ਵਿਅਸਤ.

2) Why is it that you trust online dictionaries over the University's dictionary? I'm just curious. There are issues in the University's dictionary, but it's widely considered the best on the market. It is not perfect, of course.

Thanks everyone!

Ihaveacomputer (talk) ੧੩:੫੦, ੧੪ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

1) , I see what you mean, but remember thats your personal preferance, the readers of this wiki will be more fimiliar with the sanskrit based words. 2) The university's dictionary is ok I guess --Zarienah (talk) ੨੧:੩੪, ੧੪ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC) Hello Ihaveacomputer

 I must appreciate your conversational skills and respect shown to various views with open mind. I comment on following of your concerns:-

Giving priority to Punjabi spellings guide on Punjabi wiki when it is young.I appreciate your concern. Punjabi Wikipedia is not a right forum for linguistic matters. I again appreciate your assertion. Your suggestion of using Majhi dilect in Wikipedia is already a well established practice in Punjabi literature may it be print media or electronic media.There is no question of any doubt about this. Use of Punjabi dictionaries of Punjabi University in general and reference of adak use for words ਵਿੱਚ & ਕੁੱਝ refer also your views on your userpageuse of ਵਿੱਚ , ਕੁੱਝ : Dictionary of Punjabi in general no doubt is very good source and can be considered a standard work when no parallel work of that goodness available. But it has many errors as I have told before, I never said it is unreliable as quoted by taributter and now take specially case of ਕੁਝ,both English to Punjabi and Punjabi to English do not use adak and in case of ਵਿੱਚ English to Punjabi uses adak whereas in gurmukhi to English adak is not used .So I strongly recommend not to use adak in these cases and many superfluous cases as discussed before where it does not effect meanings. Wiki is to bridge the knowledge gap. Here I want to add , this gap which is widening and widening has to be addressed by taking drastic steps. One out of this could be development of a machine translator like ,some English wikis can be converted into so many languages with a click of a mouse., This stage has to be reached in Punjabi as well. Though machine translation is not a solution because it does not take care intricacies of cultural, linguistic practices of a particular community which are inherent in that .Fully adopting machine translations or even translations without proof reading may bring violent reactions in the community for a particular isolated issue. But it provides at least some base to the seeker, in many of purely such knowledge articles ,which do not involve cultural boundaries. I know that it will further set the priority for styling spelling guide. But I have answer for this in disambiguation pages in controversial cases. With the kind of computerization we have in present days it is possible to live with spellings issue ,to be solved through a different forum outside Wikipedia for time being.

Thus I am not in favour of giving priority to styling spellings guide ,sacrificing Punjabi wiki content growth with this handful of users.

Punjabi is a boli which has grown over a span of time and space boundaries. It has its own individual inherent style, that has to be recognized and searched from its heritage with much deeper research . Punjabi language is known to have good digestion for foreign language words by adapting those in its inherent, well established declension rules. Earlier educationists had already done a ground work with their hard labour .Recent trend is to adopt Persian or Sanskrit or some other language style .Researchers have little time to obtain degrees so they force some styles which creates confusion and more mistakes are created than removed. This concern and other being less no. of Punjabi wiki contributors ,forces me not to give priority to a style guide for spellings.--Guglani (talk) ੧੧:੧੭, ੧੬ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Zarienah, yes, it is my preference for using the Perso-Arabic vocabulary, but it's wrong to say readers will be more familiar with the Sanskritic alternatives. This applies to technical vocabulary, yes, but I gave the example of "masroof" versus "vyast". Another very basic example is "Mashuur" versus "Prasiddh". Uneducated Indian Punjabis will universally agree that the first member of both sets sound more authentically Punjabi. You can test out such pairs for yourself, if you wish. Many Punjabi writers choose to use the Sanskritic alternative in an attempt to sound more educated. I believe we should keep things as simple and transparent as possible, so long as we aren't sacrificing precision.

Gugliani, are you arguing that we should never use Addhak unless the word in question has a "geminated" (w/Addhak) counterpart? That itself is the proposal of a spelling reform, as it runs against the conventions employed by the majority. With respect to Majhi, note that the years since independence have seen a huge boom in Malwai's influence over Punjabi as it is written in India. I would support Majhi as the model for using ਲ਼, however.

One last point. Writing a style guide doesn't mean that users will be alienated from contributing to the Wiki. In fact, other Wikis have used style guides to great effect! See the following pages in the Sicilian Wiki, for example: Style guide, Grammar

Ihaveacomputer (talk) ੧੬:੫੮, ੧੮ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I understand that there is a Persio-Arabic influence on Punjabi, but as I stated before formal Indian Punjabi contains a heavy amount of Sanskrit words. In Wikipedia they always the use the most formal and educated level of language, therefore in Punjabi's case the heavy use of Sanskrit words will have to be done. You will find the English Wikipedia uses a high complex level of English, terms spellings etc are all of high level. So I don't think there is a reason to simplfy the Punjabi »»Zarienah (talk) ੨੦:੦੫, ੧੮ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

(sorry, these extra sections may be excluded when archived)

I don't agree with Zarinah. It doesn't mean simplifying the Punjabi but supporting the Punjabi words (as many as possible); that are purely Punjabi, not adapted. We should find and use the Punjabi words for those Sanskrit and Persian ones as much as possible. For e.g. We should replace ਇਸਤੇਮਾਲ (persian-arabic) and ਉਪਯੋਗ (hindi-sanskrit) with ਵਰਤੋਂ, the no doubt, distinctly Punjabi word. And as I'm seeing one or two supporting use of Sanskrit words, I've to be more grammatical and talk from the deeper level of Punjabi that all the few words of Sanskrit used in Punjabi are adopted in ਤਦਭਵ form and almost all of Persian-Arabic words are adopted in ਤਤਸਮ form. We understand ਉਦਾਹਰਣ as we learned it too in some books but ordinary and most Punjabis would prefer and understand ਮਿਸਾਲ, same with ਲਗਭਗ (misspelled as ਲਗਪਗ) and ਤਕਰੀਬਨ. Again, I'm saying, instead of using any second language's word, we should find if any Punjabi word for that like ਵਰਤੋਂ; the neither Sanskrit nor Persian but purely Punjabi. But some words are adapted from other languages but in ਤਦਭਵ form (with a change) from Sanskrit and in ਤਤਸਮ form (same to same) from Persian-Arabic for e.g. शलोक is adapted as ਸਲੋਕ (not ਸ਼ਲੋਕ) same with शरीर that is adapted as ਸਰੀਰ (not ਸ਼ਰੀਰ). I'm not agree that for only the sake that Gurmukhi (also it's wiki) is mostly used in India, we prefer Sanskrit words, no, we should use Punjabi ones but rarely the the Sanskrit and Persian words, as possible. Punjabi is not Punjabi if we use the Sanskrit words a lot, ignoring (not finding) the Punjabi words. And ਹਿੱਜੇ used is for "spellings".

I think you misunderstood me taributtar, I mean to say we should avoid Persio-Arab vocab and use the words that are derived from Sanskrit. Punjabi is not a pure language and is derived from Sanskrit and the words that you claim to be "pure" may be derived from some other sanskrit word with similar meaning. But in terms of the words, I agree with you taributtar Zarienah (talk) ੦੮:੦੮, ੨੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

And I also want the community to please examine the word देहांत in contrast of ਮੌਤ. Guglani is arguing with me taking the Hindi-Sanskrit word to be Punjabi. He told me that he think that the word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ (देहांत) is a Punjabi word, relying on a google search that gives about 30,400 results but I, in his own method of taking word to be of which lang., told him to search for देहांत that gives about 1,14,000 results and ਮੌਤ that gives over 9,45,0000 results. Some Punjabi journalists and writer of Hindi background or urban resident, using Hindi words in Punjabi may be unknowingly or, may be to pay more respect to the dead one, taking "dehant" not to be a rough word to be used on the death of a respectable one, e.g. a prime ministor or any famous writer etc. They take ਮੌਤ to be rough. Always remember that news never read and written from a neutral point of view, praising and disguising the people with weasel words and peacock terms. But wiki is written from a neutral point of view and every wikipedian should support neutrality regardless their personal views. Even for Baba Nanak and Jesus the word ਮੌਤ should remains the same. Reality is that the word ਮੌਤ is not a rough word and should not taken it to be; it's the ultimate truth. I don't know about other but I recognizes that even if 300000000 people make the same mistake, it's still a mistake (also expressed this on my en.wiki talk page, using a template created by more experienced ones, that states majority is not always right). Although, it should not to be in case above as the majority is using ਮੌਤ that I'm supporting. --tari Buttar (talk) ੦੨:੩੩, ੧੯ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Sat Sri Akaal! It's totally new that VibhasKS is spreading hate over the wiki by accusing the users calling them Indian or Pakistani, also by regional languages Pakistani Punjabi or Indian Punjabi, the dialects. Check his recent edits.

Look in which type of language he is talking-and-talked, to me specially. Please check his talk style from the very begining. I many times politely requested him to repair his attitude and behaviour. He should know wiki is a collaborate project and open for everyone from any corner of the world. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੪:੨੬, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I request both TaiButtar and VibhasKS to keep your cool. As expalined else where all these issues are coming up only beacuse we did some mistakes when community started growing here. Now those mistakes has blown into some thing else. We need to find a solution for this. Togther we shall try to bring that to normal and create a good editing atmosphere here. Please refrain from posting any further comments on this topic. --Shijualex (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੪:੪੮, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I support Tari in this case as Vibhas's attitude has not been nice. I agree there are some problems with us but we are supposed to keep our points as politely as possible. In this way only a harmonious environment can be created on Punjabi Wiki. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੫:੪੮, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I don't have a problem with any nation but the words that TariButtar is pushing just you keep pushing their Persian words here, which Indians don't use. and I think they will love you on their wikipedia, but forcing them upon Indian Punjabi is not right. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੪:੩੧, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I request both TaiButtar and VibhasKS to keep your cool. As expalined else where all these issues are coming up only beacuse we did some mistakes when community started growing here. Now those mistakes has blown into some thing else. We need to find a solution for this. Togther we shall try to bring that to normal and create a good editing atmosphere here. Please refrain from posting any further comments on this topic. --Shijualex (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੪:੪੮, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

This is like the previous vocab issue that was discussed here before It was archived without a concision, please restore the comments. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੫:੫੧, ੨੬ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

This is being discussed on the main page if we must use PersioArab „ਸਫਾ“ or Hindustani „ਪੰਨਾ“, I said before that we should refrain from using too much PersioArab words in this wiki. Can others also give their views? --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੦੮:੩੮, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

TariButtar is shoving every single bit of Lahori and pakistani punjabi down the very throat of this wiki, sombody undo the major damages and restore our Wiki back to it's Indian standardized form! §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੨:੪੫, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

It's quite disgusting actually TariButtar is destroying the language of the Punjab due to his own personal preferences of Perso-Arab words. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੩:੦੪, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

As of this addition, I would like to say the same but replacing "TariButtar" with "VibhasKS" and "Perso-Arab" with "Hindi-Sanskrit". Thanks. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੩:੨੨, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

You are quite humorous too TariButtar, if I wanted Hindi-Sanskrit then I would want "ਪ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਠ" but I don't. I want Indian Standard Punjabi "ਪੰਨਾ". §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੪:੩੭, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

No I'm not. It's all that you didn't have a read. Where I told you that you're asking to use "ਪ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਠ"? Even I expressed my views on "ਪੰਨਾ" in your favour on the main page's talk page. I just replied what you said. Are you not humorous saying this even when I expressed views in your favour. Then why you keep repeating the nothing. Please have a good reading before you speak. Thanks. --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੫:੧੦, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

It is a response to your saying I want Hindi-Sanskrit, meanwhile I also explained that I want Standard Indian Punjabi vocabulary that comes from Hindustani, not Hindi-Sanskrit. You are the one who needs to read properly §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੫:੧੬, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Well, I think that should sum it up, we should use Hindustani vocab instead of Sanskrit or Persio-Arab, so please move all „ਸਫ਼ਾ“ to „ਪੰਨਾ“. So we can end this and get on with other work and Featured Content. If another problem like this arises then we should refer to this discussion. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੫:੪੫, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Oh wait dear a consensus must reach. It's not based on any one or two's preferences. Be patience both of you! --tari buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੫:੫੨, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Ok then, but how can you alter a language based on a consensus? --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੬:੦੦, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Consensus

Support

If you support the use of Hindustani vocab rather than Sanskritic or Persio-Arab, then please sign off here, use the format #~~~

1. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
2. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ

Oppose

If you oppose the use of Hindustani vocab rather than Sanskritic or Persio-Arab, then please sign off here, use the format #~~~, also for this provide a reason.

1. Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

Further Commenting

Please do not use the Sections „Support“ and „Oppose“ for further commenting, use this space instead:

• Please do not forget ਖ਼ਾਸ → ਖਾਸ §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੬:੧੭, ੨੮ ਅਕਤੂਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Use of 1,2,3.. required instead of ੧,੨,੩,...

Most of the Punjabis today are not accustomed with the Gurmukhi numerals. Even Hindi Wikipedia doesn't use the traditional Indian Numerical System(१,२,३). 1,2,3 have become the Standard Numerals for almost all the languages of the world. All the Punjabi newspapers such as Punjabi Tribune, Ajit, JagBani, etc use the Arabic Numerals(1,2,3). Most of the Punjabi Books use this system. All the books published by Punjabi University use 1,2,3 as the Numerical System. Keeping all these facts in mind, It will be a nonsense to keep using the Gurmukhi numerals as they are no longer used by the common man. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੨:੧੮, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਸਮਰਥਨ

1. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
2. --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੬:੩੯, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
3. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੬:੫੯, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
4. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ
5. --ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੧:੫੯, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
6. Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

ਵਿਰੋਧ

1. --Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੯:੫੩, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
2. itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]
3. ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੩:੧੨, ੨੩ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਟਿੱਪਣੀਆਂ

If you look at the Chinese, Thai, Arabic Wikipedias they all use the Arabic system even though they have their own, and as per Satdeep suggested the rest of the Punjabi world do not use these numerals anymore therefore there is no good reason that we should. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੦:੩੦, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Yes Zarienah Ji and Satdeep gill Ji, I actually like use Gurmukhi Number but then I agree nobody else is use them so I stop from now on, I will use 123 and no more ੧੨੩ --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੬:੩੯, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

It may be the result of activism again from itar buttar, but the rest of the punjabi speaking world has forgotten these Gurmukhi numerals. Look into modern Punjabi books, websites, newspapers, road signs, public notices, television - all of them use the Arabic numerals not Gurmukhi, so why is Wikipedia using Gurmukhi numerals? §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੨੧:੨੬, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I think if we intend to follow footsteps of other wikis, let's emulate the Hindi wiki in that it gives the option for users to choose the number system by themselves. Let's do the same here so that user themselves can decide whether they want to see arabic or gurmukhi numerals just like we choose font or input method. That seems to be the best way out so that both the points (Widespread use of Arabic and Historic and Logical Importance of Gurmukhi) are covered.Thanks --Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੯:੫੦, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I agree with Babanwali, that's the best way. --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੦:੦੩, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Please tell us how to do it ? How can i enable myself to see Arabic Numerals. Moreover the default font should always be the Arabic one because most of the people nowadays don't understand Gurmukhi numerals. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੦:੦੮, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

You are also need to read the discussion about this at Hindi Chaupal, the Arabic is still dominant on the Nagari so I am say if this comes true Arabic must be dominant on Gurmukhi. --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੦:੧੨, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

It is better not to use Gurmukhi numbers, many of the new Punjabis don't even understand them. They are no longer used, be it unfortunate and fortunate. Almost all non-latin scripted languages has moved onto Arabic numerals and Punjabi is always moving forward. ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੧:੫੯, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

It seems whenever one counters another statements here it gets personal after that, but please heed the fact that „gives the option for users to choose the number system by themselves“ with the excuse of „to follow footsteps of other wikis“, and just a time back the ਗਿਆਨਸੰਦੂਕ came from Hindi and you had a fit. Solid fact is that they don't use it anymore and wikipedia is not for your personal preference. Therefore I think the argument concerning itar buttar and Babanwalia is not good enough as they are being advocated under their personal love for the Gurmukhi numerals when all the rest don't use Gurmukhi numerals. I do not see the argument from their side as legitimate and therefore feel it is safe at this point to disregard their views. I'm not trying to take away your views but they have no solid points and are given just out of personal feelings. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੦੮:੪੧, ੧੭ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I agree with Zarienah and now i think we should make it mandatory to use Arabic Numerals so as to keep Punjabi Wiki as simple as possible. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੦:੨੯, ੧੭ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

cont.

how poor comments are coming from Zarienah's side these days. Did she took some time to check that I'm using Arabic numerals even much time before her this poor comment! And sorry but how I studied her talk I learned that where copy of other wiki suits her preferences, it's okay as for giansandook but if not she cries, "user:example is copying other wikis" how biased, unneutral and poor thought. And of course I love Punjabi but beyond any religion or caste. By the way when I came to know, by Babanwalia, that there is an option available to choose numerals according to preference, I opposed Arabic numbers' mandatory use, that's all. But she must accept that she support and oppose other wikis copy according to her preferences and after my all efforts she didn't even said a word to prove that Devnagri is used to write Punjabi in Pakistan. There is no English word in my mind's dictionary to describe her this temperament. I'm really sorry if any of my words hurts. --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੨:੩੩, ੧੭ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

it is but you commenting with ignorance, you have no argument or solid points, you're just taking it personally as usual, when you bring fourth evidence and a solid point of why your view should be considered, until then chao Itar buttar! --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੨:੪੧, ੧੭ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I didn't get much but as I assumed it to be about, it's known to everyone! How ignorantly you're talking. I know what you think of me. --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੨:੪੮, ੧੭ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

what is ignorant about my comment? Do you even know what ignorant means? I told you your view is pointless and comes out of your personal feelings therefore is not legitamate, even the majority has spoken a good enough argument and has given you enough solid points, since you can't counter them you just want to attack people personally calling them ignorant etc. I told you before that's enough, you have no legitamate point here so bye bye. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੩:੦੪, ੧੭ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

The Gurmukhi numbers are corrupt and look very bad, we should stop using them. why it won't come right? ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੪:੨੬, ੧੭ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

//The Gurmukhi numbers are corrupt and look very bad, we should stop using them.//

It is very sad to see these type of comments from Punjabi speakers.

Few things regarding Hindi wikipedia numeral issue (I blogged about that here). There were few updates after that. Hindi wikipedia actually now support both the numerals (both devanagri and arabic numerals) by developing an online solution for that. Visit Hindi wikipedia for details. So Devanagri numerals are very much in operation in Hindi wikipedia. Few other indian languages that use respective language numerals are Marathi, Sanskrit, Assamese, Oriya, Bengali, Nepali, Gujarati, and Kannada (Visit respective language wikipedias to see that). The languages shifted to arabic are Tamil, Malayalam, and telugu. So we could see that it is actually south Indian languages shifted completely to arabic. But most north Indian languages still use their own numerals even though Media (especially newspapers and TV channels) in respective languages are trying to push Arabic. A decision need to be taken based on whether Punjabi speakers who already know to read and write Punjabi understand the numerals, not based on the comment from people who are trying to learn Punjabi. --Shijualex (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੬:੦੬, ੨੯ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I completely agree with Shijualex! --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੯:੫੪, ੨੯ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I also do agree with Shiju and i would like to have a support for both the numerals. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੮:੧੦, ੨੯ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I don't agree with Shijualex and I see he took my words and twisted their meaning as if I were insulting the Gurmukhi Numerals, there is something corrupted with the ੯ and it looks really bad and I do not think the people reading it will be able to figure out what the letters and numbers behind it are.

I do not think what the Hindi Wikipedia is doing is right at all and they are just doing things to the way they believe it. If the rest of the Hindi and Punjabi speaking world does not use it then why must we work according to our preference.

Therefore the clear reason why I oppose the Gurmukhi numerals is because nobody (outside Wikipedia) is using them, it is as simple as that.

--ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੮:੦੪, ੨ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਨਮੂਨਾ, ਅਧਾਰ ਜਾਂ ਮੁੱਢ

ਸਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਜੀ! ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਦੱਸੋ ਕਿ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਮੁਤਾਬਕ ਅੰਗਰੇਜ਼ੀ ਦੇ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ stub ਵਾਸਤੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕਿਹੜਾ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ ਠੀਕ ਹੈ? ਮਿਹਰਬਾਨੀ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਰਾਇ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇਹ ਪੂਰਾ ਸੁਨੇਹਾ ਪੜ੍ਹਨਾ ਕਿ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਨਮੂਨਾ ਅਤੇ ਮੁੱਢ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਠੀਕ ਲਗਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਅਧਾਰ ਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ base ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ stub ਨਹੀਂ। ਇਕ ਵਾਰ ਮੈ ਕਿਤੇ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਨਮੂਨਾ template ਲਈ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਸੋ stub ਲਈ ਇਹ ਠੀਕ ਨਹੀ ਪਰ ਇੱਥੇ ਦੱਸਣਾ ਚਾਹਾਂਗਾ ਕਿ template ਲਈ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ "ਫਰਮਾ" ਵਰਤਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸ਼ਬਦ "ਨਮੂਨਾ" ਵਿਹਲਾ ਹੈ। ਅਧਾਰ ਠੀਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਅਧਾਰ ਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, "base" ਜਾਂ "ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਚੀਜ਼ ਖੜ੍ਹੀ ਹੋਵੇ" ਪਰ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਕਰਿਓ ਕਿ ਸਾਡੇ ਵਿਕੀ ਲੇਖ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਓਹ ਦੋ ਜਾਂ ਤਿੰਨ ਵਾਕਾਂ ਤੇ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਖੜ੍ਹੇ ਰਹਿਣਗੇ ਅਤੇ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕਿ ਵਿਕੀ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਲਿਖ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ, ਭਵਿੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਓਹ ਲੇਖ ਬਹੁਤ ਸੁਧਾਰੇ ਜਾਣਗੇ ਅਤੇ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਉਸ ਅਧਾਰ ਤੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਖੜ੍ਹੇ ਰਹਿਣਗੇ। ਆਖ਼ਰ ਵਿਚ ਮੈਂ "ਮੁੱਢ" ਨੂੰ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਵਧੀਆ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕਿ ਅਸੀਂ ਆਮ ਹੀ ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ ਵਿਚ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਾਂ, "ਫਲਾਨਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਨੇ ਇਸਦਾ ਮੁੱਢ ਬੰਨਿਆ" ਮਤਲਬ "ਸ਼ੁਰੂਆਤ ਕੀਤੀ" ਅਤੇ ਇਹੀ stub ਦਾ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਨੇੜਲਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੈ। ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਢੁੱਕਵੇਂ ਸੈਕਸ਼ਨ ਵਿਚ ~~~~ ਵਰਤ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਸਤਖ਼ਤ ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਆਪਣੀ ਰਾਇ ਦਿਓ। --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੯:੧੩, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਮੁੱਢ

ਸਮਰਥਨ

1. ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੯:੨੦, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
2. itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

ਵਿਰੋਧ

1. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
2. --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੧੭, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
3. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ

ਅਧਾਰ

ਸਮਰਥਨ

1. ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੯:੨੦, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
2. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ
3. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
4. --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੧੭, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
5. --ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੩੪, ੧੬ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਵਿਰੋਧ

1. itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

ਨਮੂਨਾ

ਸਮਰਥਨ

1. itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

ਵਿਰੋਧ

1. ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੯:੨੦, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
2. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ
3. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
4. --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੧੭, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂਨੂੰ ਮਿਟਾਓ

ਸਮਰਥਨ

1. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} They are useless
2. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੨:੧੯, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਵਿਰੋਧ

1. --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੧੭, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
2. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ

ਟਿੱਪਣੀਆਂ

• This is a complete waste of time, this is the reason why we are still struggling to reach 4000, because of people like TariButtar making a fight and consensus over every single word. It's starting to get irritating and useless moreover ever so harmful to the wiki. Thanks TariButtar! --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੦੯:੩੩, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

A stub is an article deemed too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject. ਆਪਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਆਪਾਂ stub ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਲਭਣ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਉੱਤੇ ਇਸਦੇ ਅਰਥਾਂ ਉੱਤੇ ਜੋਰ ਦਈਏ। This article is a stub. ਇਸ ਵਾਕ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਰਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਮੇਰੇ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਉਪਰਲੇ ਤਿਨ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਜਾਵੇਗਾ, ਉਰੇ stub ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਬਹੁਤ ਛੋਟਾ, ਨਿੱਕਾ, ਨਿਗੂਣਾ, ਨਾਕਾਫੀ ਜਾਂ ਅਪੂਰਨ ਆਦਿ ਹੋਰ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮੇਰੇ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਕਰਨੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ। --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੯:੪੦, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Zarienah ji please stop this nonsense as you are being bad to users here. Consensus is always the way how wiki works and the way how conflicts are resolved here, I think you know this better. Instead of there nonsense talk and bad faith on fellow users, assuming I'm always right, you should just vote. Are you the person who can start a consensus others are just to fight? Please refrain from being like this as for the last few days you're being very unexpected. And @Satdeep please feel free to give your views as it 's wiki you're always free to give yours. --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੯:੫੪, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I have given my views that i don't support any of these word. None of them is used in Punjabi the way we will be using them. I would like if a more familiar Punjabi word is used and the very use of which makes it's meaning clear. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੦:੦੦, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Satdeep, please do not bold your text in talk pages like that, sometimes it is helpful for people who are don't speak punjabi well to understand what you are referring to, but it is also attacking and rude. I know you perhaps learned this from itar buttar and I also did this before, but it can be nasty and wrong. I advise that everyone stop using it. Then if what you say is true (from my understanding) then all these words are wrong (ਮੁੱਢ = tree stump; ਅਧਾਰ = foundation; ਨਮੂਨਾ = design/template) then we should just call it „ਸਟਬ“ or we should not have this template on the wiki as it does not help keep track of anything as the category is full and one can't find it to be useful. & itar buttar your nonsense is wasting our time and destroying the wiki I suggest you examine first, if you're going to continue this I will open a RfC on your behavior towards users here. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੦:੦੧, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

In a way I agree with Satdeep, but I see these templates as useless and I vote we should delete them all. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੦:੦੩, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Zarienah ji and Satdeep ji, I understand your views, but TariButtar is not here to grow anything, he is here to push his perso-arabic words with bindis and delete all the Sanskrit words, thereby destroying the Punjabi language and that is exactly what he is doing. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੦:੧੦, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

just tell me which of them is persian or arabic? --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੧੦:੨੨, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

VibhasKS, please rectify yourself, TariButtar is working to make ammends, please do not hang on to past events and work together because if you create a border and divide the members is is dangerous for the wiki. Help us work together as one and also keep welcoming and grabbing new people to work with us! I'm done here as I see that these templates are useless and should be deleted. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੦:੨੬, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Zarienah, we can't delete them, otherwise all the pages in this wiki will have red links to the template. Only ਅਧਾਰ is correct, as the stub is a foundation of an encyclopedic article. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੨:੩੮, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Vibhas, You can't force your own assumptions on us. "ਅਧਾਰ" is not at all right. Just look at the meanings. And please tell me the source from where you get this word and the other word ਮਾਖਜ਼ਾਂ . ਮਾਖਜ਼ਾਂ is also not a Punjabi word. I am telling you again to discuss such matters in the community before using the words on your own. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੭:੦੮, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Satdeep, the words are found in various Punjabi dictionaries, dictionaries don't add words like that just because they feel like that, and also that was a comment out of turn. Not everything needs your or anybody else s approval Satdeep, the wikipedia is for everybody to edit. I know maybe you have learned this attitude from me and I'm sorry to have spread it to you but Satdeep, please unlearn it and assume good faith. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੭:੧੯, ੧੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜਾਰੀ

Really? Wiki is for everyone? I think it's not when I, Satdeep, Babanwalia and Charan Gill ji make edits, it for you trio, I'm sorry. I'm sorry Zarienah your attitude is not right but 'bhand tusi mainu rahe o, thaan thaan.' Look how you completely denied Satdeep's views and the hurting thing is that you still talking about assuming good faith. I'm really very sorry, I never understand you. If the wiki really for everyone then why you called the consensus a wastage of time, 'll it be solved by fighting then? Why you just got fix with a word suiting your preferences, while your Punjabi is at level 2 (you said) and you should try to learn! Instead of listen to him you denied without knowing that he may have any better, may be just bcz he's not agree with you. I'm very sorry to see that users not take part in discussions and letting the Punjabi depend on the few. Did you noticed, Charan Gill ji, Satdeep and Babanwalia (from the active ones) doesn't voted yet? Don't they have the right to express their views. But sorry I only know the straight way, as my English, I told you many times, is not very good. --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੧:੩੯, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

What an out of turn and biased comment, did you not see my last reply to VibhasKS? and you said I denied Satdeep's views, what view of his did I deny. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੦:੨੨, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

itar buttar, you just hate it when the community consensous back fires on you? Quite hilarious to read your comment. Anyway Zarienah ji, did you even consider the fact that over half of his wiki's articles contain this template and if we delete it it would leave red links everywhere, there is no admin here to delete it either? §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੨੧:੨੬, ੧੫ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Discuss ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਜਾਂ ਜਿਲ੍ਹਾ while the title is the original one

Everybody please give their views regarding the spellings for district in Punjabi.

I think just ਜਿਲਾ not ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ or ਜਿਲ੍ਹਾ. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੦੭:੩੩, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I think it should be the one used most in literature and offices with bindi and pair haha as it is the standard one (maybe not the most easy one but we can't change Punjabi so that it seems easier to us). Even major newspapers like Ajit (http://www.ajitjalandhar.com/20121124/ludhiana.php), Jagbani and almost all the boards and document of Punjab Govt. 1.(http://www.google.co.in/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&tbo=d&biw=1366&bih=705&tbm=isch&tbnid=JSAJW_2lhR9VwM:&imgrefurl=http://whotalking.com/flickr/Moga&docid=BCLHxRvErBt1OM&imgurl=http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/3077375714_0eb269b8e2.jpg&w=500&h=375&ei=pH6wUI2jLsrnrAeVg4CgDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=534&vpy=132&dur=1524&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=95&ty=92&sig=113974408588155380327&page=1&tbnh=148&tbnw=198&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0,i:136)2.(http://ludhiana.nic.in/gallery/index.html#Official+Buildings) offices use "ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ".--Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੭:੩੭, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜਿਲ੍ਹਾ is best, you should know that people in different places spell things differently and many areas do not even have Z sounds in their Punjabi, so I would believe ਜਿਲ੍ਹਾ to be best. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੦੭:੫੯, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ! ਸਹੀ ਅੱਖਰ ਜ਼ ਨਾਲ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਕੱਲਾ ਅਜੀਤ ਅਖ਼ਬਾਰ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਜਾਣਕਾਰ ਲੋਕ ਜ਼ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਨੇ। ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਿਆ ਗੱਲ ਖ਼ ਤੋਂ ਚੱਲੀ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਖ ਵਰਤਣਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਵੇਂ "ਖਾਸ"। ਮੈਂ ਸੋਚਿਆ ਸੀ ਚਲੋ ਫ਼ਿਲਹਾਲ ਖ ਵਰਤ ਲੈਣ ਦਿਓ, ਹੌਲੀ-ਹੌਲੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਸਮਝ ਜਾਣਗੇ ਪਰ ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਔਖ ਦਾ ਰਾਗ ਅਲਾਪਦਿਆਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਹਿੱਜਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਚੈਲੇਂਜ ਕਰਨ ਲੱਗ ਪੇ! ਇੱਥੋਂ ਤੱਕ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਸਭ ਨੂੰ ਪਤਾ ਹੈ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਮੁਤਾਬਕ ਢਾਲਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਆਸਾਨ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਬੱਸ ਪੂਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੀ। ਅਫ਼ਸੋਸ ਕਿ ਨੇਟਿਵ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵੀ..।

ਵਿਦਵਾਨਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ-ਵਿਗਿਆਨੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਿੱਥੇ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਬਾਰੇ ਪੱਕਾ ਪਤਾ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਨਾ ਲਾਓ। "ਗਲਤ ਜਗ੍ਹਾ ਲਾਉਣ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਸਹੀ ਜਗ੍ਹਾ ਤੇ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਵੇ ਚੰਗਾ ਹੈ।" ਪਰ ਇਸਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਜੇ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਤੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਦੂਜਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਠੀਕ ਨਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੇਈਏ। ਸਗੋਂ ਨੋਟ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੀਦੈ ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਜਾਣਕਾਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਸ਼ਾਮਲ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੀਦੈ। ਸਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ। --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੮:੦੦, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Commenting as per sources, I agree with Babanwalia ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ but ਜਿਲਾ according to the use in the Punjabi world also seems to be accepted? I think it should be either or. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੦੮:੦੬, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Oh the Punjabi government use ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ? But they use Arabic numerals too? You are only referencing to them now because they agree to your preference, just shows hypocrisy §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੦੮:੧੧, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

we are already using arabic numbers here, no need to be angry!

Zarienah, ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਸੋਰਸ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਨੇਟਿਵ ਪੰਜਾਬੀਆਂ ਤੇ ਯਕੀਨ ਰੱਖੋ ਵਿਕੀ ਸਾਡਾ ਵੀ ਹੈ ਅਸੀਂ ਇੱਥੇ ਸ਼ੁੱਧ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਰਤਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਾਂ। ਅਤੇ ਰਹੀ ਗੱਲ, ਤੁਸੀਂ ਕਿਹਾਂ ਜਿਲਾ ਆਲਸੋ ਅਕਸੈਪਟਡ, ਨੋ! ਇਹ ਮਨਜ਼ੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਗਲਤੀ ਗਿਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਮਿਊਜ਼ਿਕ ਵਿਚ ਵੀ ਬਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਨਾ-ਵਰਤੋਂ ਅਕਸਰ ਟੋਕੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਜ-ਕੱਲ੍ਹ ਤਕਰੀਬਨ ਸਾਰੇ ਗਾਇਕ ਇਹ ਬਿੰਦੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਚਾਰਣ ਵਿਚ ਚੰਗੇ ਹਨ। ਕਦੇ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਆਓ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਸਾਰਾ ਕੁਝ ਵਖਾਵਾਂਗੇ! --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੮:੨੦, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

From my idea ਜਿਲਾ is simple and best, no ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ; ਜਿਲ੍ਹਾ; ਜ਼ਿਲਾ --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੮:੨੩, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

and when did I say that Arabic numerals shouldn't be used...I said we should use both of them because softwares are available so we can use both of them so everybody is happy... I didnt even revert the edits made by users to remove Gurmukhi numerals.--Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੮:੩੦, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਬਹੁਵਚਨ ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹੇ , ਹੀ ਸਹੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਜੋੜ ਹਨ। ਜਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਤਾਂ ਸੁਸਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇਗਾ। ਇਸ ਲਈ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗ਼ਲਤ ਵਰਤਣ ਦਾ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ਨਹੀਂਂ। ਉਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਬਦਲਾਅ ਜਾਂ ਤਬਦੀਲੀਆਂ ਜੋ ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਨੂੰ ਜਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਵਿਚ ਬਦਲਣ ਲਈ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਗਈਆਂ ਹਨ ਰੱਦ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਜਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਜਿੱਤ ਜਾਂ ਹਾਰ ਨਾ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਜਾਵੇ। ਜਿਲਾ ਵੀ ਸਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ। ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ ਦੇ ਅੰ-ਪੰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਕੋਸ਼ ਵਿਚ ਵੀ ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੀ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਸੰਬੰਧੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਵਟਾਂਦਰਾ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਇਥੇ ਬੰਦ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। http://punjabiuniversity.ac.in/dlpl/e2p/ ਵੀ ਦੇਖੋ।--Guglani (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੩:੦੩, ੪ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ

1. ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ)
2. Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੬:੩੯, ੨੮ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
3. Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੯:੦੨, ੨੮ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
4. itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]
5. ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੨੧:੧੪, ੧੬ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜਿਲਾ

1. --ਰਾਜੇਂਦਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੮:੩੪, ੨੪ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
2. Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ}
3. Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]
4. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ

Comments

ਨਤੀਜਾ ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ ਬਹੁਵਚਨ ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹੇ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਜਾਵੇ। --Guglani (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੩:੦੩, ੪ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

You can't pass a verdict so fast, it has to be a week after the last vote has been made, just because you are an admin it does not allow you to ignore the rest of the community and pass the verdict over them. §§VibhasKS_ਚਰਚਾ ੧੭:੨੪, ੫ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Last vote was on ੨੮ November and Guglani posted verdict on ੪ December. Its period between 28nov-4dec.(if u didn't check, other way my bad!) --ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੭:੫੭, ੫ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ehna ne kade Punjab aa ke vekhya ke ithe kee use hunda. Sidhiaan te clear gallaan te voting karna kehrhi changi gall a. Is ton ziaada behtar hai reliable sources nu refer karo. Koi language kise consensus de base te alter nahi kiti ja sakdi. Native Punjabian di ethe koi kadar nahi bas apna hi ghorha dakri phirde ne, jis naal bande da Punjabi level duje nu clear ho jaanda. Check how the word is used officially in Punjab, par lang. Nu sikhan di bajaae us nu apne mutabik saukhi karn da raag alaapna sara-sar ik agiaaniaan wali gall hai, ethon hi tan pata laggda saadi knowledge da par je agge vi saade varga hove tan kee kariye. Native Punjabian di tan ethe haq hi koi ni te oh bolde hi nahi ke koi word aseen kinjh use karde haan. Bas consensus lai ke beh jaande a, jad ke sources wall koi dhian ni dinda, jo ke gall clear kar dinde a. Sources di gall challe vi tan vi bas google search tak pahunch a ehna di. Bhala dasso google kithon search karda; bas saade wargian di likhi Punjabi na ke kise scholars di likhi hoi. Te waise Google search tan ਖ਼ਾਸ bare ਖਾਸ naalo ziaada results dinda hai phir ਖ਼ਾਸ da virodh kyu kita. Reliable sources nu nakaar ke consensus laina ik be-bunyaad gall hai, jad ke is gall bare tan kise sources ya consensus di lorh hi nahi kyu ke har native Punjabi nu pata ke aseen kee use karde haan bas do-tin jaane baahron a ke Punjabi de scholar hon da dam bharde a, jad ke ehna da nazaria native Punjabian ton sikhan da hona chahida c, tusi aap hi vekho kee soch hai, kithe ku kharhe han, jad ke ehna de edits, style etc. Ton ehna di Punjabi bare knowledge clear hai. Sab nu pataa ke is word nu kiven likhya jaanda hai Punjab vich. --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੨:੨੭, ੬ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Plz itar buttar, Punjab official government is not the ruler of Punjabi language, just Punjab land. Tell where your reliable source??? Why you are always fooling and coming up with weird words and spellings???? So much mischief from you --Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

yes Punjabis don't know the use of Punjabi but you do, right? Please stop your nonsense. You, everytime, neglecting Punjabi words we use to add your own. Please learn what and how the Punjabis use. --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੧:੩੫, ੭ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Plz learn and stop mischievousness, you are not the King of Punjabi and nobody vote for u. U just very jelous and sad becuz the votes are coming against you :P If u want to learn I can help u. You are welcome my facebook and email id and I teach u how :) --Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

I understand you Sonia but still I feel ਜ਼ਿਲ੍ਹਾ will be better. We best not make the same mistake. --ਬਿੱਲੀ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੨੧:੧੪, ੧੬ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Warning to Babanwalia

ਵਰਤੌਂਕਾਰ:Babanwalia has done much damage to the Punjabi Language Wikipedia, when even maybe he is right, he war is wrong. He does not know and does not want to learn how we must work here on Wikipedia. He never thinks but always is crossing his limet by moving things without discussion instead of being mature to solve dispute he rather makes stupid wars to damage this Punjabi Language Wikipedia, he has many warnings and he still very rude and stubborn to listen. I request him to please learn how we must work and stop his nonsense. The rule of Wikipedia is clearly state that even if you are right you are not allowed to make war and if person makes war they must be block but Punjabi language Wikipedia has no Admin to do this so I want steward to see this so they can block him and create some peace here because I'm not the only person who Babanwalia has been war with. He is war with many members of this community and I think it is time for him to stop. He has many warning on his talk page and now is time to stop. --Raj Singh^{(ਚਰਚਾ•ਯੋਗਦਾਨ)} ੧੮:੪੯, ੨੯ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I think this is a much needed and legitimate warning to Babanwalia as he has been one of the big causes for massive wars on this wiki, but before I want to get to the point here I've been noticing that users here seem so take things personally all the time and such discussions turn away from the subject and turn into personal attacks, I highly request everyone to comment here with a cool mind and think twice before directing their personal anger at other users. As far as it goes I actually used to like working with Babanwalia and the main page is actually the result of our collaboration and work together. But lately Babanwalia has been reported to the stewards because of his warring and I would believe them not to be taking action regarding this matter as they are not members of our community. A huge problem he failes to understand is that you cant go on warring like that, that is not how you solve disputes! you are human we understand why you are disputing you probably may even be right but the way you are trying to solve it is wrong, if we had a good active admin Babanwalia would have been blocked a long time back, had he done it on any wiki that had a good admin he would have been blocked. I've tried to ask him nicely to understand how we resolve disputes here and he said that I was 'terrorising' him which I found highly out of turn and perhaps coming from personal anger and feelings. On another note I want to ask the user on the other side to rather be the mature one as it seems that most of the time Babanwalia will not resort to a mature discussion but an immature petty war. These wars do not benefit any side and in the bigger picture damage the wiki. I would say that these policies are to be applied more thoroughly on users and users such as Babanwalia should be more open to listen and learn the policies of Wikipedia, it is not something that I or any member of this community made up to terrorise you with but it is simply a policy on Wikipedia. Know that I do not only consider Babanwalia as the immature and faulted one as the other side should rather be better than Babanwalia and rather maturely discuss the matter, therefore the other side is equal and I myself was once the person whom he was warring with and I do not deny that what I did with the infoboxes was wrong and I will not make such wars occur never again, but it still seems that the warring of Babanwalia has not ended therefore I see this as a most legitamate and hopefully last and final warning to Babanwalia. He has made some good contributions here and everybody's contributions here are really valuable but as far the warring is concerned its clearly crossing the limit, it does not help anyone and neither side of the dispute will benefit and in it all this Wikipedia will not benefit. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੨੧:੪੬, ੨੯ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

This is not right. It's just to increase number of warnings on one's talk page. This can be done very easily and cleverly by placing a warning for every little oppose one did to you. Warning has a meaning that none knows here. Users are placing warnings on others' talk pages just to show the stewads that this person only fight while they've personal anger and feeling against them. Do the warners ever had a consensus before making a change? Even controversial? The history speaks itself, if one could make efforts to check. ਛੱਜ ਤਾਂ ਬੋਲੇ, ਛਾਣਨੀ ਵੀ ਬੋਲੇ! --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੨੩:੫੭, ੨੯ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I won't take this much pain writing big arguments because actions speak louder than words. Just three points I have noticed during my work here which constitute this persistent drama:

1. If a user dares go against Raj or Zarienah, he is warring, disturbing peace and should be blocked.
2. My (alleged) revert wars (mind it, I can prove that first revert or redirect is never from my side) are damaging this wiki in far less grave manner than your continued commitment to adulterate Punjabi with Hindi words and formations. (Now you would say I hate Hindi and so on.) plus have you wondered why only with you? Let me tell you it is because your Punjabi writing skills are poor and "poorer are your learning and accepting mistakes skills".
3. Raj and Zarienah (or Vibhas for that matter) are free to do any change, however big or small, without discussion or consensus but if it is by me or tari buttar, then we are acting immature, disturbing peace and need to be blocked.

Now a really big retrospective question for Zarienah; please see your Punjabi fluency level and then look at the disproportionate authority you impose on this language, its correctness, its history and sources and lastly, its wiki. Start listening to other users' point of view and respecting it and accepting your mistakes when they pin-point one and maybe nobody needs to go to war including you. Nobody is going to comform to your ways eternally. There are bound to be differences in perspective, big or small. And if I start proving (and accusing), I can prove that half of the templates Raj has created today are direct transliteration and copying of Hindi wiki, starting right from the title to the very content. They are not even Punjabi words. I would really advise you to start working on the articles in lieu of talk-pages or community portals. Use this much length of material on an article, both of you, and maybe, in no time, it becomes featured one on the main page! --Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੨:੦੬, ੩੦ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Mr Babanwalia, you should know almost every Punjabi understands Hindi very well and Hindi speaking peoples from acros India can understand Punjabi. Go and ask a Hindi person to watch Punjabi news, they understand and same when Punjabi person watches Hindi news they also understand. So I am saying to you that they are very similr languages even neighbors. So it must not be such a surprise so find same-same words. --Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

• Really? For where I study in Rajasthan, my classmates (who are native Hindi speakers) don't even understand my Punjabi, Punjabi news and songs not withstanding!! Even if I agree with you for an iota of second, even then, why being so obstinate about adding Hindi words in PUNJABI wikipedia especially when Punjabi word for that exists (Thank God! It does.). And you know the people who are complaining about me asserted few days ago that we should not use Lehndi Punjabi words (It is PUNJABI after all and it is the same language with a different script) even though both Punjabis are way more related to each other than Hindi and Punjabi can ever (forced to) be. Even if "almost every Punjabi understands Hindi", it doesn't mean "almost every Punjabi would be willing to read Hindi on Punjabi wikipedia". Then probably we could have just relied on Hindi wikipedia. Why make Punjabi wiki after all?? Thanks for your opinion though.--Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੭:੨੩, ੭ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

• REALLY!!! I'm speaking the truth!! Thanks for agreeing with me for an iota of second but where did I add words not Punjabi. If you mean ਸੁਆਗਤ then plz tell me why it was in jee aayan nu page as ਸਵਾਗਤ which is hindi स्वागत???? Hindi never say सुआगत. U kno Punjabi and Hindi are big language with many different way to use. I think Rajasthani speaking peoples won't easy for them to understand Punjabi and of course if if the Punjabi is in Gurmukhi/Shahmukhi they will hardly understand. I am talking when we speak. In Dilli my friends can understand mine and my parents Punjabi. Not total but the message comes!! I removed jee aayan nu because it is very simple secular as ਸੁਆਗਤ otherwise do u want ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਆਮਦੀਦ? There are so many same same words in Hindi-Punjabi so I am NEVER EVER say they are 100% same but you say you are very surprised that there are same same Hindi words and there is not surprise. Even Punjabis from Punjab understand Hindi, not just the the ones in Dilli. You reeally changed my word I never say "almost every Punjabi would be willing to read Hindi on Punjabi wikipedia" I never say!!! Plz calm I never say they are same language and never I will say it because that is stupid. Never I said we Punjabis don't have our own language but just don't be upset when you find words same because if you must know Punjabi never relies on Hindi. --Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

Would you believe if I tell you that I'm now in complete agreement with you but was not before. Just see the wonders, a language and its positioning can play...You are the same person, maybe with the same views but now you expressed them differently and that's really good...Plus I don't think (would be too egregious) that Jee Aayan Nu has any secular connotations or otherwise (It's not Sikh or Hindu way, it's Punjabi way to welcome someone and quite unique one on that)...Plus why would I want Khush Amdid?(or maybe, you're also taking me to be some Pakistani in disguise for I advocated the similarities between the aforementioned languages)...I just said no other language (or dialect, for that matter) unless a Punjabi alternative isn't there!! Hope you'd agree. Plus I'm talking about spoken Punjabi only...Your friends can understand perhaps because they have been exposed to Punjabi (most probably, yours :P) and yes, that way I can even understand Marathi of one of my friend...Hoping to see you contribute actively. Thanks!--Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੧:੧੩, ੭ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Babanwalia, its not your words, but the warring this warning is about. It has nothing to do with your words being wrong or right and it still seems that you continue to resort to warring in the edit summaries you fail to assume good faith. Weather you were right or wrong, you resorted to warring which is wrong and yes it is disturbing peace and the consequence of the action is a block. Was it not easy to just leave a kind message on the users talk page? That's all we're asking you to do, nothing else. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੨:੩੭, ੮ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Zarienah, how hypocrite of you! I can give you scores (literally!) of links where you are reverting the edits done by users like me... Have you ever heard of a war from one side?...Could I keep on fighting alone when nobody is taking arms against me?...You really should understand the meaning of war or is it that your only purpose here is to discourage others (esp. me coz I really don't conform to your indisputable command over Punjabi) from reverting the wrongs while you can revert it infinite times even if you are utterly wrong, I wonder, isn't that a war??...It always takes two to clap or war...Next time you give me such an example, I would flood your talk-page with scores of counter-examples where you are warring (with me and Tari Buttar, of course)!! And while I'm at it, may I take the liberty to suggest you to contribute something valuable (and not just another warning to some other user) here (an article, for instance) and not just lengthen the talk-pages here about the (alleged) wars. --Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੩:੩੭, ੮ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

No need for that, I was warned and I was wrong, I admit it :) It's not about your command of the language, it is about your interaction with other users that is wrong and that is what the warning is about. Even if you are right you are not allowed to war, it's simply a policy and not allowed. The point is after my warning I stopped. But you are still carrying on with it which is wrong. All we ask is you to kindly assume good faith on users and discuss with them? How hard is it and how hard can it possibly be? I may have warred with you and TariButtar but you have warred with me, Vibhas, and a new user, and on another hand had left hostile edit summaries and a hostile message on the users talk page, this wiki is small you you know it needs more members so why are you hostile to the newbies. Yes I can be equally blamed for hostility and I openly admit I was wrong. But you have too much of ego and pride to admit you are wrong to be warring and instead change it to ones command of a language. --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੪:੦੦, ੮ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

As I can see you are not really getting my point in my own words. Maybe I can answer your own points one by one...

• I was warned and I was wrong, I admit it: See how hard is it to admit that (I think no less than a page full of warnings to Babanwalia)
• It's not about your command of the language, it is about your interaction with other users that is wrong and that is what the warning is about. Even if you are right you are not allowed to war, it's simply a policy and not allowed. : Agreed. So tell me was I alone in reverting back and again my own edits or was it Raj and you too, hell-bent to revert the articles to your preference esp. when the sources and references I provided were screaming at the top of their lungs that I was right...
• n another hand had left hostile edit summaries and a hostile message on the users talk page, this wiki is small you you know it needs more members so why are you hostile to the newbies.: You see you act like you know everything about human nature and that somehow you are qualified to judge others...That newbie was under misconception that maybe the browser is not saving his/her edits and for every revert I requested her to provide a reference. That newbie actually came to my talk-page lending his/her help in Geography articles and has started working (WITH ME) on a few articles regarding Geography...I see, you didn't care to notice that, did ya?? That would not have proven your point that I'm terrorizing, bullying, threatening, bulldozing users, would it have??
• you have too much of ego and pride: See what I'm talking about. Your user-page says you are a sikh and yet you don't care about Guru Nanak's teachings that don't judge others. Maybe I have ego (everyone has) but were you very selfless in commenting here? Were you not warring and are doing so even now and over that, accusing me with half-baked allegations of yours that I'm hostile?? Believe me, I find nobody more hostile here than you...Disproportionately sanctimonious.

If you really believe that we all should leave warring behind, kindly do not comment after this for you'll always have more to say and I'll always have more to say upon that. Let me do my work here, plz??? (It took 7 minutes of my life to write a worthless response to your accusations) --Babanwalia (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੯:੨੬, ੮ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

No more discussion. Babanwalia is doing some good work and we should appreciate that.--Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੨:੩੨, ੯ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I agree with Satdeep and Babanwalia,

• It's not about your command of the language, it is about your interaction with other users that is wrong and that is what the warning is about. Even if you are right you are not allowed to war, it's simply a policy and not allowed. : Agreed. So tell me was I alone in reverting back and again my own edits or was it Raj and you too, hell-bent to revert the articles to your preference esp. when the sources and references I provided were screaming at the top of their lungs that I was right...

Thank you! At last that is all you needed to say!! :) --Zarienah ^{ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ • ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} ੧੬:੩੧, ੯ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Request to use Punjabi for internal discussion

Could I request all of you to keep the medium of the discussion because the wikipedia related discussions are meant to be in the respective languages. If you all being Punjabi speakers don't discuss in Punjabi then who else would use it. Additionally it also doesn't bring other wikipedians taking part in Punjabi Wikipedia related discussion and (possibly bring unnecessary problems). Now I can read and understand everything as they are in English and intrude in your discussion and spoil it :D So, please discuss in Punjabi among yourself and use English for people like me who are from other wikipedia community and can not understand Punjabi. I am also requesting the admins to make a guideline page for the wikipedians so that each of them follow certain guidelines while interacting with other fellow wikipedians. Some of the must rules should be like:

• Discussions among Punjabi Wikipedian should be always in Punjabi.
• Wikipedians should behave in a civil way and respect other fellow wikipedians, etc.

Thanks! --Psubhashish (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੩:੫੦, ੩ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Feel welcome to intrude in our discussion and spoil it :D --Sonia Singh [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ]

Punjabi Templates Not Good

I have just made an article on a foreign writer but when i used the punjabi template in the article and saw the preview, the it didn't show the image. So for the time being i have used the english template and i will change it to the punjabi one when we will have a good template. I would like to request our members to contribute toward it. As such template helps to make the wiki more colourful and more interesting. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੭:੪੨, ੩੦ ਨਵੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਤੁਸੀ ਕਿਸ ਲੇਖ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ??--ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੧:੪੩, ੧ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਮੈਂ ਟੈਂਪਲੇਟ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹਾਂ। ਫਰਮਾ:ਗਿਆਨਸੰਦੂਕ ਲੇਖਕ, ਮੈਂ ਲੇਖ ਦੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਹ ਟੈਂਪਲੇਟ ਦੀ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੀ ਪਰ ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਈ। --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੨:੧੩, ੧ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਮੈਂ ਵੀ ਚੈੱਕ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਤਸਵੀਰ ਲਿੰਕ ਕੰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੀ। ਕੋਈ ਗੱਲਬਾਤ ਹੈ ਜਰੂਰ।--ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੨:੪੨, ੧ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਮੈਂ ਫਰਮੇ ਦੀ ਮੁਰੰਮਤ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਹੈ, ਹੁਣ ਵੇਖੋ ਜ਼ਰਾ ਅਤੇ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਦੱਸੋ ਕਿ ਕਿਸ ਲੇਖ ਬਾਰੇ ਗੱਲ ਕਰਦੇ ਓ? ਉਸ ਲੇਖ ਵਿਚ ਵੀ ਥੋੜ੍ਹੀ ਜੀ ਮੁਰੰਮਤ ਕਰਨੀ ਪਊਗੀ। --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੪:੨੩, ੧ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਮੈਂ ਇਸ ਸਫੇ, ਜੋਜ਼ਫ ਬਨਾਸ਼, ਬਾਰੇ ਗੱਲ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹਾਂ। ਮੈਨੂੰ ਲਗਦਾ ਹਲੇ ਵੀ ਟੈਂਪਲੇਟ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਧਾਰਨ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਰੂਰਤ ਹੈ। ਕਿਰਪਾ ਇਸ ਵੱਲ ਧਿਆਨ ਦਿਓ। --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੫:੧੮, ੧ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਇਸ ਸਾਂਚੇ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਖੇਤਰ 'ਚ ਵੀ ਕੋਈ ਚੱਕਰ ਹੈ। ਕਾਰਜ ਖੇਤਰ ਪੈਰਾਮੀਟਰ ਕੰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦਾ।--ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੩:੨੯, ੩ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Fixed, kJ.. plz check! --itar buttar [ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ] ੦੯:੩੭, ੩ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਚੰਗਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਵੀਰ, ਮੇਹਰਵਾਨੀ।--ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੫:੫੧, ੩ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Please Fix This Template

ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਗਿਆਨਸੰਦੂਕ ਜੀਵਨੀ ਨੂੰ ਠੀਕ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਵੇ। ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਆ ਰਹੀ। --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੧੭:੩੨, ੪ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Please Fix Gadget ProveIT

Whenever we use this gadget to give references then it uses English instead of Punjabi, i.e. something like Retrieved on November 01, 2012. --Satdeep gill (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੭:੨੩, ੫ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

koi is gadget nu v theek kro vei.--ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ) ੦੧:੨੨, ੧੦ ਦਸੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)